I have less than 60 hours of playing time in 3-6 HE, and not much more in poker altogether. I have probably spent as much time studying the game, using “Winning Low Limit” by Lee Jones, “Hold-em Excellence” by Lou Kreiger, and “Hold-em Poker for Advanced Players” by Sklansky and Malmuth, along with other books. So far, despite losing in the few short handed games I’ve been in, I’m ahead. A situation occurred yesterday which I am still trying to figure out. Perhaps someone can enlighten me. Got into a great game, ranging from loose passive to a bit aggressive, with the most aggressive player two seats to my right, and a loose aggressive” in seat 2. [I am in seat 9 and I'm assuming that seat 1 starts at the left of the dealer. Things are going well, it is a "kill" game and a kill pot comes up.[bets double]. The button is on seat 2, I get pocket Aces. There are two bets to me and I raise. Seat two re-raises, seat three calls and seat 4 gets all in with final raise. So there are four of us including one all in. The flop comes QQJ. (I am deeply concerned} Seat three comes out betting, I make a hesitant call, seat 2 raises and seat 3 re-raises. Now I am in a complete quandary, I call time and try to remember any information from the references I’ve been studying. I am getting fuzzy and all I can pull up is Sklansky saying “If in doubt call”, so I call. I don’t remember what the turn was, but seat 2 and 3 are still in a raising war and I am caught in the middle, and upset because I think I should have folded because there isn’t a chance in hell that one of these guys doesn’t have a Queen. The river comes, seat 3 bets and I fold. They raise each other some more, then seat 2 turns over his AJ for one pair and seat 2 can’t even beat that. I chalked it up to inexperience and didn’t let it get to me too bad, but I am still wondering what the right play was.
Answer 1:
With only 60×2 hours spent on poker, you found yourself against a couple of either tough or maniac opponents who you call either “loose passive” or “a bit aggressive.” Until you get 500-1000 hours of experience under your belt I would recommend you concentrate on the basics, and ignore the reading of raises and the quick classifications of table conditions advocated in HPFAP, some of which as general advice is just plain wrong.
Answer 2:
It would be a better initial use of your time to read one book three times, and at every reading think about when (what situations) the given advise might be wrong and when it might be right. Eventually, read them all, but just reading one of them and thinking about it a lot takes you much further in the beginning. The first step is to evaluate the game, not the individual players. How
loose is the game (how many loose players)? How aggressive is the game (it only takes one loose aggressive player to make for an aggressive game
sometimes)?. In hold’em, you should often give it up on the flop. I’m not saying you should have here. But, in general, in holdem, if you’re in doubt on the flop then fold, if you’re in doubt on the river then call. In this situation, aggressive players who are raising a flop with QQx almost surely don’t have a queen. Aggressive players often suffer from FPS (fancy play syndrome) and tend to slow play too much. Not always, but that’s the tendency. Folding on the flop would not have been wrong. Folding on the river
is an awful mistake. You made exactly the mistake that Sklansky’s “when in doubt call” was intended to get you to avoid. This is why it’s better to read one book three times than read three books in the beginning. You need to understand what you’ve read — when it applies and when it doesn’t. By reading three books you just filled your head with stuff you only half understood — then in the heat of battle, you remembered the adage — but you remembered it on the flop, when it wasn’t meant to apply, and forgot it on the river when it was meant to apply. I would have been raising all the way. On the river I think they would have checked to me and I’d have bet.
Answer 3:
I would say you have two options:
1. With that flop, and a lot of betting and raising, you could fold. Don’t get married to your AA. You will be dealt it again, eventually. One of your opponents *might* have either JJ or AQ, or even possibly QJ. On the other hand, the raise of a loose aggressive player (maniac?) doesn’t necessarily mean anything at all, and you don’t want them bluffing you off a pot, which leads to option 2
2. Decide you still have the best hand, and keep going until/unless the evidence against you becomes overwhelming. Note that the bigger the pot, the smaller the chance that it would be correct to fold, even if you are behind, as long as you have decent outs. Sklansky has written that incorrectly folding on the river is a “disaster” because you lose an entire pot. Once you get to the river, you need to be very sure before you fold, especially in a low-limit game where people are always doing “irrational” things. However, folding on the flop is a common event — regardless of your pre-flop holding, the flop often misses you and you often should fold right there.